Legal Value Network Founding Board Members Keith Maziarek and Justin Ergler visit Technically Legal for Episode 32.  Keith, a second time guest (Episode 15 – legal service pricing) and Justin talk about the genesis of LVN (an evolution from the P3 conference) and the group’s mission of “designing, building and implementing the foundations of a more contemporary and commercially-sound model of legal service delivery.”

Keith is Director of Legal Pricing and Project Management at Katten Muchin and  Justin is Director of Alternative Fee Intelligence and Analytics at GlaxoSmithKline.

Keith and Justin explain that inclusiveness is a big goal for the Legal Value Network and the group wants to create a membership community with representation from all corners of the legal ecosystem

The group’s activities and educational offerings are organized into the Six Pillars of LVN:

  • Essentials: webinars, podcasts and publications
  • Labs: to hone industry standards through client and law firm collaboration
  • Legends: recognizing achievement in legal innovation and evolution
  • Horizons: geographic chapters
  • Pulse:  monitoring legal industry developments via surveys
  • Legacy: mentoring, leadership development, “Ask a Pro” forums and diversity initiatives

Keith and Justin explain that through LVN they hope to encourage community and collaboration throughout the legal services industry.

Episode Credits

Editing and Production: Grant Blackstock

Theme Music: Home Base (Instrumental Version) by TA2MI




Episode Transcript:

Chad Main:

Keith Maziarek is the director of Pricing and Legal Project Management, at the Chicago based law firm of Katten Muchin. And Justin Ergler is the director of alternative fee intelligence and analytics at pharma company GlaxoSmithKline. Both are founding board members of a new legal industry organization called the Legal Value Network. As Keith and Justin explain, the LVN is an outgrowth of the P3 conference, which is an annual conference held in Chicago where people from all over the legal industry gather to learn about innovation in the legal world.

For my money, the P3 conference is one of the best legal innovation conferences out there. Not surprisingly, the conference will be held online this year, but as always, they will have some great panels. While we’re on the subject of LVN online events, if you’re listening to this podcast before May 6th, I’ve got good news for you. The Legal Value Network has put on a webinar hosted by William Henderson, of the Indiana University School of Law. The topic of the webinar is the challenges and opportunities of one too many legal solutions. You can register for that at, and I will also put information about the webinar, and a link to register, at the episode page at

In the meantime, let’s let Keith and Justin tell us a little more about the genesis of LVN.

Keith Maziarek:

Legal Value Network is really the community of professionals that have come together, we’ll call it the next generation executives in the legal services’ industry, on the management side of things. Dealing with pricing, legal project management, process innovation, practice management, a lot of those related functions and disciplines, that really started to come together as a result of the annual P3 conference.

What we saw at the P3 conference over the years was a growing community of people. And I really say community because there’s a lot of sharing, a lot of friendships that have formed over that, just from people that have similar roles and similar responsibilities in their organizations.


For people that might not know, what’s the P3 conference?


P3 conference is a conference that’s held every year. It was the first one, it has now grown to be the largest for people in the legal industry that have roles really into pricing, or legal project management. We’ve, over the years, expanded the tents, or the umbrella, whatever you want to characterize it, a bit more to include a lot of the people that are dealing with new questions related to knowledge management, and some of the innovation. Really, into things like how do you construct more efficient engagement plans? What is the changing dynamic as it relates to client relationship? Folks like Justin, on the client side now, and what are the bonds, and opportunities to make progress and modernize the way that firms and clients work together through those relationships.

The event has grown over the years. Initially at P3, was meant to represent pricing, project management, and the third P’s always been ambiguous, people change it. At first, it was process innovation, some people had said practice management, and then it was practice innovation. So, we’ll just call that ambiguous, but that was the genesis as the P3 grew.

Justin Ergler:

The one word you touched on there that, for me, differentiated, I guess, the P3 community, and the P3 conference as a whole, and that really spawned a core group of veteran P3 folks are the ones that came together and formed LVN. But, it was that sense of community that you talked about.

I know when we were kicking around LVN, some of us, I reached out to some peers at other clients, and said, “Hey, here’s what we’re thinking of doing, what do you think? If we were to go down this road, what would you recommend? What would be enticing to you to say hey, that’s an organization I’d like to be a part of?”

One of the things that people kept coming back to was that sense of comradery and community, that this was an organization that was focused on people, it was focused on elevating the profession, it was a very open community. That’s something else that always surprised folks, I guess, on my side of the aisle, the client side of the aisle, is the openness in how much people shared at this P3 conference, and in these discussions, and in these chats over happy hour in the evenings, et cetera.

We’ve given a lot of thought as we’ve launched the Legal Value Network, of maintaining that sense of community, and not eschewing that for some brand new, buttoned down organization. We really want to make sure that we do not lose that sense that, to be honest, really endeared a lot of us to this initiative. I know Keith especially, and Purvi Sangvhi, Chris Ende, Toby Brown, others have put in a ton of time to get LVN to where it is now, and we’ve still got a long way to go. It’s that sense of friendship, that sense of togetherness that, I think, just as much as anything professional, et cetera, has driven that commitment from the board members.


I just listened to … I think you had maybe your first webinar, I listened to it last week. I believe it was Toby Brown that mentioned … Toby’s with Perkins Coie, right?




I believe it was he that mentioned community and collaboration is the goal of the Legal Value Network. So, with that in mind, who is Legal Value Network? Who are the members, can anybody become a member? What are their communal interests?


We want an inclusive community that captures the entire ecosystem, if you will, of the legal industry. Obviously P3, as it grew, was mainly law firm centric, but as Keith said, over the years there were a bunch of clients, like myself, that said, “You know what? This is a really good thing here.” I had always said that P3 was the best conference I went to every year. It had a growing client base, it had a growing provider base as well.

Providers weren’t just there as the eye candy in some kind of a ballroom, where they would try to present their wares. Providers were encouraged to be a part of the conversation, to be a part of the solution of how do firms deliver legal services better to clients. Rather than being on the side, or a sideline cheerleader, we wanted them in the game.

That is LVN, I think. Those are the members, current and future members of LVN. It’s not just trying to service one segment of the industry, we’re trying to make sure everybody’s voice is represented. That even extends into academia as well.

One of the things that I know that a lot of folks, and folks from law firms that are listening to this I think will definitely nod their heads in agreement, but I know what one of the challenges I’ve heard is changing the tide, and getting people to understand the value and the benefit of, perhaps, looking at how you do things differently. As part of the thought leadership, and as part of the goals and efforts of LVN, of how do we do things that are in line with the next generation demands of clients, that’s one of the things that we’re hoping to put forward, is thought leadership. Hopefully, that will, in some way, shape, or form seep into academia, how young lawyers are being trained to meet the challenges of tomorrow.

In a nutshell, I think that is the major … If you’re talking about a membership profile, I think that’s the differentiator of LVN, is we want representation from the entire ecosystem, from training new lawyers through the lawyers of today, the technology providers that enable next gen thinking and next gen delivery. And then, the clients who, ultimately, are the ones that decide if a solution or something actually is thought leadership. Does it actually meet the needs, and meet the demands, make life easier, make life better for the client?


There’s one other dimension of who is LVN story, there. I’m thinking back to when the careers, or the professions that we now hold were created, it was a result of the financial crisis of 2008, there were a lot of new specialists, or people with new focuses. Actually, there weren’t a whole lot of specialists back then, because we were all trying to figure out what the new world looked like. But, there was a lot of people who were supposed to be focused on looking at the more sound business principles as it relates to the economics of law firms, the economics of clients, client legal departments. Where the value was added from a service standpoint to their respective organizations, as it relates to the way work is done, which is we’re all talking about human capital business here.

What is the right way to staff, or to accomplish, or complete certain types of work, or projects, or work streams? What’s the mix of people that you need, what’s the training they need? Are there technology solutions you can integrate into the process that make it more efficient, quicker, more accurate, all those types of things?

What happened was there was an evolutionary cycle where people that were charged with solving these problems, or cracking the code on how to look at these things in a more sophisticated way, all began to evolve, and they began to emerge as these subject matter area specialists. It’s a lot of those roles, we call them next generation roles, that came out as a result of the transformation of the legal industry on the buy side and the sell side, to a more sophisticated enterprise, as it relates to management principles. How do you look at metrics, and performance indicators, and those things, in a way that’s helpful to the business, and also, obviously, helpful to the work that you’re doing for clients, and it makes for a better, more fair workplace to the people doing the work, and everything along those lines.

It’s really that set of people. I mentioned some of the typical titles, although they do range. There’s people in the pricing LPN roles, practice management roles, we’ve got a lot of innovation, client economics, those kind of things. A lot of the work that we do on the law firm side is in collaboration with marketing and business development, or it’s driven by what some of their initiatives might be. I think on the client side, too, there is that touchpoint in terms of what’s the best, most effective way for firms to be approaching their clients with new opportunities, things like that, so there’s a place in the community for some of the professionals that work in those disciplines as well.

Not to be like we’re boiling the ocean, it’s not everybody. We’re not trying to specifically target everybody in the world’s most near and dearer things, but all those functions that are under the umbrella, I would say.


The mission of [the Legal Value Network] is to accelerate evolution in the legal industry. Specifically, the group stated goal is to create a forum to connect the business of law professionals from law firms, corporate legal departments, alternative legal service companies, and technology providers who are focused on designing, building, and implementing the foundations of a more contemporary and commercially sound model of legal service delivery. I asked Keith and Justin just how they were going to act upon this mission statement, and they told me a lot of it would be based on collaboration and community.


As we thought about what would be impactful, and what would be rewarding for the people participating in the community and in some of these initiatives, we really tried to put a lot into how could you engage people to do something practical by bringing people together to mobilize around some of these initiatives, and create something meaningful in the industry that would help progress the goal.

So as we brainstormed, we started coming up with, there’s certain sort of cost of admission things you have to do as an industry organization. You’re always going to have some kind of thought leadership content out there, so obviously there’s got to be some element of the typical things, like webinars, and podcasts, and other types of publications, and things of that nature that everybody does. And, rightfully so because the people that are aligned with those 

What we’re trying to do in that regard, too, is stick to that guiding principle of making everything inclusive of the ecosystem. So, where there’s a relevant point or perspective that comes from what the clients think of this, or what maybe an alternative legal service provider might think, or what their goals might be on that, we want to make sure those voices are heard so we have holistic thought leadership out there.

But then, what we wanted to get into was also exploring some of the areas that not a lot of the other, I would say, peer groups that are in the industry, in the space too, have been doing as much. Our goal is to do things that are differentiated, to some extent, but complimentary of a lot of the efforts that some of the other great industry groups that are doing work on the client side, and law firm side, and both.

So, what we wanted to do in that regard was say, okay, and I mentioned this a little bit before, is how could we put together focus groups that we tasked with addressing, or defining, and unpacking what some of the challenges were that are facing law firms and client legal departments, and how service providers can help solve those problems. How can we get groups together to say, hey, why don’t you go organize some groups, that can sit down and map out, here’s some solutions, and here’s perspectives that we need to keep into consideration. There’s, again, tangible deliverables at the end that say, here is a holistic solution to these common problems. That’s one of the things we wanted to try and do.

We had had a similar, dip our toe in the water experience with this before, a couple years ago, at the P3 conference. We had done a round table session, where we had five tables, they were half filled with law firm people, and half filled with client legal ops executives. Each table had a problem to solve, and said, “Here’s a challenge in the industry. How do you deal with providing budgetary certainty on a regularized basis? What’s a good solution for that?” Each of the groups when the brainstormed, and put together plans, and ideas. After the event, everybody walking out of there was really energized, and a fair number came up to us afterward and said, “Man, this was really fun, we should do more of these kind of things. This was great.”

That was one of the things that I thought back to, as we were talking about how we could be collaborative, and impactful, and come up with practical solutions. That collaborative spirit, it seemed to be very rewarding to everyone that was participating. That’s a big of what we’re trying to do to live up to our mission.


You touched on this with how LVN first came about, but for me at least, and I’ve heard from a bunch of other people, too, some of the best “content,” if you will, came out of in the evenings, sitting around over a drink, and just talking shop. At dinner, talking shop, just bouncing ideas. “Hey, here’s what I’m working on. I haven’t seen so-and-so in a while. What do you think of this?” For the conference, that’s where I probably got as much out of it as the sessions. From a content standpoint, it was always a double feature.

With LVN, and what Keith has talked about and described, I think, captures as well … With LVN, we really want to almost kick that into a higher gear. Having groups, and having missions, having initiatives that look to build on the way we would if we were just talking shop. Let’s get some people that know what they’re doing, let’s get some people that have some good ideas, or that have some problems and need some good ideas, let’s put them together, and let’s see what solutions we can come up. Let’s get input from the entire community, as I was saying earlier, let’s see where some challenges might be, and let’s develop a solution for the industry together.

I think that is how we are looking at delivering the mission statement. A lot of the ideas, the content ideas that we have, some of them center around that. We have ideas about looking at, can we set up sessions where we can have industry thought leaders that can just say, “Hey, here’s what I’m working on, here’s what I’m doing, here are some challenges that I’ve faced, so on, and so forth. Here’s one way of overcoming them,” so people can learn. Recreating those ad-hoc, one off conversations, but rather than, for just the benefit of one or two people sitting in a hotel lounge somewhere, for the broader LVN community.

I know I keep going back to it, and I don’t mean to sound too sappy, but we’re really looking at a lot of bold initiatives for the industry, but we’re looking to conquer those challenges, and deliver on those initiatives, with a community based approach.


I would add one thing on that real quick, too.

One of the things that’s always struck me as I feel like we’re very lucky, or very fortunate to have is the members of that community are a lot of the names that you see that people look to when they want to get guidance, or get ideas. Who are the innovators, who are the disruptors that have come up with new ways of looking at challenges that we deal with, and how can we leverage those for our own good? We’ve been really fortunate to have created some good relationships and bonds with that group of people, throughout the P3 time, and other forums as well, where they’ve become really engaged in the process as we’ve been talking about how we can mobilize some things about LVN.


The offerings and activities of Legal Value Network are organized into something that they call the six pillars.

The first is Essentials, that’s the pillar that promotes thought leadership through webinars, podcasts, and publications. The second one is Labs, with a focus on industry standards. The third one is Legends, as recognizing achievement and leveraging wisdom in the legal industry. Fourth, Horizons, that’s expanding the geographic reach of the organization. Fifth is Pulse, which monitors legal industry developments. Finally, is Legacy, leveraging the perspective of the various LVN members.


As we wanted to come up with what we hoped would be impactful initiatives, and things that we could focus our time and attention on, And hopefully rally some support around throughout the community and a lot of the leaders, we started coming up with ideas. It seemed, as we started making a list over time, that some of the offerings or concepts are related to each other. Rather than have a long laundry list of here’s all the things we want to do, one day we sat down and said, “Okay, what kind of categories make a lot of sense? What are the main themes, or pillars, of what we’re trying to build here?” That’s where the pillars concept came from.

As we came up with our ideas and we started to organize them, it turned out that, as it happened, it seemed like there were six general categories that could capture what we had talked about so far. The first one is LVN Essentials, and that’s really comprised of some of those standard things that you would expect, thought leadership content in the form of webinars, podcasts, written pieces, that’s what the Essentials thing is, and I think it reflects that. The things that you would expect, and you have to have from an organization like this.

LVN Labs is the next pillar, and that’s really the one that is comprised of some of those initiatives where we’re talking about developing task forces that are balanced from members of the community, and perspectives to say, “Hey, here are some issues that we want you to solve.” That could be from an industry level. We’ve talked about putting together some industry specific tasks forces, so if you’re a client, if you’re in Justin’s seat, and you work in the pharmaceutical industry, you could get some client contacts and some law firm contacts that work with clients in that area and say, “Hey, what are some unique issues that we face? How can we start a dialogue on that, and come up with some solutions to helping streamline our work together?” That’s the stuff under Labs, a lot of that collaborative, sitting down with people on the other side of the table, and working together to come up with collaborative solutions to a lot of the problems that we face, and have a tangible outcome.

LVN Pulse is the next one. That’s really just trying to have some presence in the survey space, but we’re even measuring what’s happening, figure out the pulse of the industry kind of thing, year over year, across different questions or developments that might be taking place. We’re developing a survey now that’s actually got a lot of crossover, or corresponding questions to the legal department operations survey that the Blickstein Group has been doing for 12 years now. So, what will be interesting and unique about our survey is we’ll be able to line up law firm response to the same questions as the questions that were asked of the legal department operations execs, and say, “Okay, where are the disconnects? What can use that for as, as a basis to try and make some progress on helping everybody work together]?”

Horizons, LVN Horizons is the next one, and that one is just really talking about historically, coming out of the P3 platform we’ve had one conference per year. Talking about how do we not only, perhaps, have regional meetings, again bringing in all stakeholders to the table throughout the United States. But then also, there’s a huge contingency of people in Australia, Southeast Asia as well, and obviously a considerable number in the UK, and more and more throughout continental Europe now. How can we bring these same principles and ideas to those communities, and try and help establish some comradery, and collaboration there?

The next one is LVN Legends, and that’s really just talking about … We mentioned Council of Luminaries as one of the fun, interesting projects that we’ve put together. That was really an effort to develop a brain trust of some of the veterans in the industry that have been on the front lines for a while, probably a lot of familiar voices. But, to get together and talk about what do we see changing in the industry, or what am I experiencing right now that we can share ideas on, and help develop the most effective and consistent solutions across the industry, so that we’ve got a lot better approach to dealing with things.

We’re in the middle right now, actually, because of the current global health crisis, we kicked off a weekly version of the Council of Luminaries. We just had our second call a couple hours ago, where we get eight or 10 folks on the phone and talk about what are they experiencing, how are they looking at addressing some of the issues. What’s the long view, what’s the short view? Then, the following Monday, we’ll turnaround and publish all the notes and the key takeaways of the advice from these very accomplished veterans in the area. That’s one of the Legends thing. We also want to develop an awards offering, so annual awards for different categories of achievements just to give people recognition for the great work that they’re doing.

The last one is LVN Legacy, and that’s really talking about how do we take the best practices and learnings of the community that we have, and help make sure that we’re bringing up the younger people that are coming up now in the industry. The coordinators, the analysts, so they can be tomorrow’s leaders, and benefit from what some of the more senior folks in the community have already established, and have that continuity, and that ability to help the youth so to speak. We talked about a mentorship program that we’re working on developing right now, there’s a diversity initiative as well in the Legacy pillar.

Then, the other thing is we wanted to make a resource available for people throughout the community, that maybe don’t have the same level of investment or dedicated resources in any of the functions, where maybe some of the other firms do, that have been more invested for a while, in some of these disciplines. There’s a forum on our website called Ask A Pro, and basically that’s an opportunity for any of the members to go in and submit a question. Like, “Hey, I’m dealing with this. Does anybody have advice?” We’ll have a couple of designated people that are responsible for responding on a rotating basis, to get that advice and guidance out there for people who need it.


Let me just touch on the last two that you talked about, Keith, the Legends and the Legacy, because I think with the theme of the profession growing, and the profession advancing over the course of the P3 journey, and how that spawned into LVN.

One of the things, when you have a strong profession, or a strong anything, you’ve got depth. You’ve got not just those top people that maybe have all the knowledge or know everything, but you’ve got people that are both working with, working underneath them, that have extensive knowledge as well. That’s one of the things that we’re looking to do, we’re looking to broaden the community, and get that depth of knowledge, and drive it so that the profession, as a whole, becomes even more of the key cog at law firms, and in corporate legal departments.

With those legends, what those Council of Luminaries providing the thought leadership, but then also with the mentoring programs, with the making sure that we’re not just talking to the chief pricing officer of XYZ firm, or the legal operations director of such and such a client, we want the analysts, we want everyone to be involved in this. Because, often times, you have people approaching it from different angles, approaching it from different backgrounds, and sometimes even if you do have those people that have great experience, that have been doing this for a while, you can get stuck. It’s easy to get stuck sometimes, in a singular way of thinking. I know I have found myself doing that sometimes. So, making sure that we’re embracing the entire community, and getting thoughts, and getting leadership even, from those folks that may perhaps be new to the business side of legal, or the pricing profession in general.

We’re really focused on building and developing the profession as a whole, and I think that has been consistent from the start of P3, through the evolution into what is now LVN.


As I wound down my talk with Justin and Keith, I noted that there are a few other organizations out there, that focus on legal tech and legal innovation. So, I asked them what they thought made LVN stand out from the other organizations out there, and how they will work to distinguish it from the offerings of the other groups.


For me, it’s a true sense of collaboration, where everyone has an equal voice, everyone has equal footing. And, I know it’s cliched, but with the focus on being on developing, truly, win-win scenarios.

For me as a client, if you take this to a micro level, and look at a negotiation with a law firm. Could I ask a client, sometimes, get the way better end of the deal, get one over on the law firm, and win that deal, win that negotiation? Yes, absolutely. Is that good, necessarily, for the long term? No, no it’s not. What I try to do in my job is try to make sure to understand the pressure points, the pain points for the law firm while knowing my pressure points, my points, and how can we work together to develop something that works for both of us. Are we going to get everything each of us wants individually? No. But collectively, are we going to come up with a solution that meets both of our needs, and often times elevates the actual level of delivery, and the level of value that’s generated? Yes.

That’s the goal, and that’s what we’re trying to do with LVN, is understanding the needs of the different pieces of the community, putting everybody on equal footing, and trying to figure out how can we do things that don’t just drive down the prices of law firms, if you’re a client. Or, don’t just maximize the revenue and profit, if you’re on the law firm side. How do we do things that deliver the most value to those relationships at large?


I’ll add one thing to that, too. It sounds really Kumbaya, like oh, we want everybody to get together, and hug, and love each other, and we’re all the same. I guess, the realistic observations that we’ve had, or at least I think we all have these epiphany moments, when we started having clients involved in some of our programming related to P3, four or five years ago I think, something like that, it was an inflection point in terms of what people took away from the discussion, and what people brought back into their offices. I noticed that, then, I had a lot more productive conversations and work, not only with partners because I have the client’s perspective, but also increasingly more with clients.

I could say, “Okay, look I’ve heard this angle, or that angle, I understand a little bit more about what your scope of concern is, or what some of the requirements passed down upon you are, so I can be sensitive to those and figure it out.”

What has been interesting to me, and I’m just thinking of a couple specific instances the past couple years, is when we’ve all worked to try and get as much of a client contingency at the P3 conference the last few years, five years or so, as possible. Obviously, there’s budgetary constraints, and things of that nature, so we don’t get the same population that we think we could or should. But, as we’ve had a couple dozen, I’ve had a couple of them come up to me, and Justin said it, too … He’s probably got the better perspective on it, just because I think he’s more directly related to that community. They’ve come up to me and said, “This is great, this is so much different than all the other conferences I’ve been to, where it’s a little bit more of an echo chamber. You guys all help each other, and then I say something and you listen, and you don’t tell me why I’m wrong.”

It’s very much like, “Oh wow, I feel like I can express myself, or bounce ideas off you, and I don’t feel like I’m in a competition, or it’s a win-lose thing. I feel like we’re talking together, and so is everybody else. This is a really great scenario.” I think that just goes into what Justin’s saying, in terms of what we’ve seen of observations of others that have come to the conference from different backgrounds and viewpoints, they’ve been very complimentary and said, “Man, you guys are doing a great thing here. It’s new, I haven’t really seen this before at other conferences, or other groups I’m involved in,” or whatever it might be.

Getting back to the cliché, oh Kumbaya, everybody sit in a drum circle, but it is really what we’re aspiring to, is to be able reproduce as much of that feeling, and that sentiment, and that camaraderie and collaboration as we can.


Yeah. Keith, to your Kumbaya point, I laugh but it’s true. We had an LVN board call this morning, and somebody had brought up, I think it was Chris Ende had brought up a meeting of our management committee. I’m sorry, our membership committee, and I’m not on our membership committee. He was rattling off a few of the names of folks that I hadn’t talked to in a while, and I was kind of bummed. I was like, “Well damn, I want to be on the membership committee, I miss those folks.”

It sounds silly, but here I am, a client, a buyer, and I’m bummed out because I’m missing talking to “the vendors.” How many industries, or how many organizations do you know, where buyers are like, “Jeez, I really wish I could talk to some more vendors today, some more suppliers today?” That doesn’t happen a lot. What I miss about it, and what I love is the community that we built, and that we’re building on with LVN, it is that talking shop, it is those great stimulating conversations, as Keith described, those round tables that were done a couple of years back, where everybody walked out kind of invigorated, it was great conversation.

It does sound silly, and I know to give another cliché, I could do the Field of Dreams, “If you build it, they will come,” but you have to be a part of it to understand it, and to get it. The reason I feel comfortable advertising it is just because, as we were doing research, and as we were developing the idea that initially became LVN, talking to folks in the industry, I started to realize that I wasn’t alone in recognizing that community feel, recognizing that camaraderie. So, while it does sound a little bit silly, and even somebody like me, if I hadn’t been involved it in, I might roll my eyes as I’m listening to this podcast, it’s true, and I encourage people to come be a part of it.


Keith, Justin, I appreciate your time. If people want to learn more about LVN, where can they go?


You can go to, plenty of information up there, we’ve got some substantive content, everything is open to the public now. We’ll be putting some of it behind members only areas later on in the year. But, at this particular time in the industry, we don’t want to be requiring people to spend money to get access to the thought leadership and other opportunities we’re putting out there. That’s all up on the website, and we also have a page on LinkedIn. Thanks, Chad.

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